User blog comment:Fimber/When family is what destroys you/@comment-67.239.100.57-20121123082221/@comment-5684105-20121123211327

Are we watching the same show at all?!

About Arthur killing Uther you said: “So killing his father would have destroyed Arthur? Okay, and how about ‘killing your father is a crime/wrong’? “

I used the line about how killing his father would have destroyed Arthur to make the point that the show demonstrates the destructive, evil nature of the act; it would even destroy Arthur himself. This underlines and highlights the evil of taking a life, not distracts from it!!! You say the show doesn’t make it seem that killing your father is an evil? How should they have made the point of how evil murder is? Have one of the characters give a speech on the evils of murder?

“Instead, and this is typical Overman, Gaius asked Merlin if he was tempted to let Uther die and Merlin admitted. It was made clear that he only saved Uther because of Arthur.”

That’s one of my favorite parts in this episode! Merlin, a “good character” is tempted to do what is wrong, how terrible! But, honestly this is only realistic. ? Just because Merlin admitted he was tempted doesn’t mean that the show is condoning that. This makes Merlin (and other characters in the show) so lovable, believable and three-dimensional, which is a good thing. Would it be normal for someone to not think twice about saving the life of the man responsible for killing so many of his people and who would kill him in a heartbeat? No, only a saint wouldn’t be tempted to let him die. This doesn’t condone murder, but this is just good storytelling.

The show having Merlin save Uther for Arthur’s sake not Uther’s is wrong? How often have people refrained from doing something wrong, not because they knew it was evil, but for the sake of a friend? I’m sure it happens all the time; I know I have been in this position myself. I have been in serious situations where I had to make a decision on a moral issue and it was the welfare and love of a friend that helped me make the right choice. ? Did I do what was right for its own sake? No, it was only friendship that kept me from making the worst decisions in my life. And of course, friendship is one of the main themes of “Merlin”; it is a powerful force. This whole situation shows this aspect of life beautifully. Like I said, this is great storytelling! It is just things like this that make me love this show; it speaks straight to the heart.

“Yes, fairytales are cruel, but considering in what time they were written, it's not surprising. Yet, in those fairy tales the evil ones are clearly separated from the good ones in order to make it understandable for kids. They are not presenting grey characters at first and make them suddenly evil later when you have already developed sympathy for them.”

I think this is where we come to the heart of our disagreement and where we find the fundamental difference between our ideas on what makes a good and well told story. I believe the absolute, black and white nature of fairy tales (and other stories with the same attributes) to be a weakness these stories have. Sure, I love and enjoy them now and did when I was a kid, but they lack a depth and complexity that other stories have. Have you ever read novels based on fairy tales? This is a really interesting kind of book. It takes these same characters and adds “shades of grey” to them that make them more lifelike and believable, gives them a personality instead of just “good guy” or “bad guy”, and make the story much more enjoyable. And more importantly, it gives so much more opportunity to explore the morals and themes of the stories in a much more powerful setting. ?

As for “presenting grey characters at first and make them suddenly evil later”, I don’t see any characters in “Merlin” becoming suddenly evil. Sure, some will use Morgana as an example but I don’t agree her change was sudden, but that her downfall slowly started in the first season. Even though in the year she was gone between series 3 & 4 she changed quite a bit, it wasn’t unbelievable as it had been building to that for two seasons.

And what is wrong with having even good characters become bad ones? I think it’s a very powerful way to make a point. (Of course, for a family show the main hero shouldn’t become evil; that would be too dark, I think. For example, for Merlin to become suddenly, irrevocably evil like Morgana would just be too much. But Morgana is not the hero of the show; she’s not even as important as Arthur to the story. But I have no problem with Merlin having failings and weaknesses throughout the episodes, especially as he gets older. I could go on…) ? The characters just didn’t become that way for no reason. “The decisions you make now will change the shape of everything that is to come”, Morgause rightly told Morgana. Morgana’s story is one of bad decisions she made that make her the way she is today. And if we don’t already have sympathy for these characters, the story is that less powerful and effective.

And yes, I do believe complex characters in stories like this are suitable for children. They are much more capable of contemplating and understanding these themes than many people realize. Of course, every child is different and it’s the parent or guardian’s job to decide what they can understand and handle. I’m just speaking generally, of course.

“And those fairytales movies we see today, the ones that deal with the cruelty are not made for children but for adults. I don't see Disney movies as cruel ones, for example. The family members that are evil in those stories are not multifaced characters like Morgana and Uther used to be. And the good characters usually don't do such questionable things that are sold to the viewer or reader as being okay.”

Multi-layered, three-dimensional characters are the most interesting. And like I said, we are not talking about Aesop fables where the moral is spelled out; the moral should be a part of the story, almost that you don’t even notice it. I don’t see how you have a problem with the show not “criticizing bad behavior”; it doesn’t have to, since the whole show demonstrates the evil, destruction, and chaos that comes from these things. This argument reminds me of the TV show “Little House on the Prairie”. ? Just about every episode has someone, usually one of the children, do something wrong. And the show ends with a very “touching” and sentimental heart to heart with the parents, and the kids understand what they did and everything is talked out. Thank goodness “Merlin” doesn’t employ a similar technique; it is, for lack of a better word, very corny. (Nobody get offended by this. I used to watch the show myself when I was little!)

As for Morgana having fans and people taking her as a role model: Some just love her character because her story is one you can empathize with, sometimes bad characters are more fun, and sometimes people read things into the show that just aren’t there. (Like Arthur and Merlin being gay; I never understood how they managed that one! It’s like they’ve never seen male friendship before!) We have to judge the show on what it is in itself. I’ve always argued against those fans that want to blame everything Morgana does on Uther, Arthur, and Merlin. She made her own choices. And I think the show shows that very clearly. If Uther and others, for example, would have made better choices, would Morgana have turned out differently? Maybe, maybe not. Yes, Morgana made her own choices, but we don’t like in a social vacuum either. I think “Merlin” shows both aspects of this.

And I think I did read your review of “The Death Song of Uther Pendragon” and disagreed with you then. My point is if Uther knew where Arthur stood while he was alive, he would have been just as angry. How would he have handled it? What would he have done?

“Naturally, there are always things in real life with real people we don't agree with, within the family and among friends, collegues, etc... That doesn't mean that we a) forget about all the stuff we said and felt before, b) that we try to kill their loved ones, c) that we even hurt our own loved ones, d) that we cause may them and become a threat to everyone.” ? I don’t think anyone will argue that this show is about normal average people though.

ust look what Uther did and said to Morgana when she stood up to him about Mordred.

UTHER: If I discover that you were somehow involved in freeing this boy, the consequences will be extremely severe.

MORGANA: My Lord, you know I respect you too much to ever betray you like that.

UTHER: I made a promise to your father that I would protect you. But if you cross me again, I will break that promise without a second thought.

This conversation is put into even more context if we remember the earlier one with Arthur:

ARTHUR: Well, then spare him for Morgana's sake. She's clearly grown attached to the boy, and if you execute him I fear she will never forgive you.

UTHER: I do not seek her forgiveness! She has betrayed me!

ARTHUR: Yet you're sparing her.

UTHER : ''She has the promise I made her father to thank for that. The boy enjoys no such privilege. He will be executed at dawn. ''

Uther was in effect threatening Morgana with execution, and she knew it. That’s why she was so terrified that she had magic; she had no hope he would spare her even though he loved and raised her. Gaius, who knew Uther for years, thought the same, which is why he didn’t want even her to know she had magic. And why did Uther threaten to kill her? She was going against his worldview and beliefs which he saw as a betrayal. “She has betrayed me!”

And by going against everything Uther taught him, his beliefs, worldview and legacy, Arthur was a traitor in Uther’s eyes, like Morgana was in the example above. ? So I see it as perfectly in character for him to act on that like he did in “The Death Song of Uther Pendragon”. ? You can say he didn’t actually carry out the threat to Morgana and try to kill her like he did Arthur, but hers was an isolated incident. With Arthur it was many things and the way he was running the kingdom. And he asked Arthur to reconsider, gave him a chance, and Arthur refused.

I’m not saying Uther didn’t love his children, he just didn’t love, or even know them enough. ? If “The Death Song of Uther Pendragon” had gone another way, with Uther choosing Arthur instead, I wouldn’t have seen it as ooc either. Uther always has been a complex character where his children are concerned, complex and even hypocritical. I think the pendulum could have swung either way without “ruining” him.

“And yes, he was aware of the knights at the birthday feast because we saw him talking to Agravaine in the background, so he wasn't totally out of order and most of all not blind to what was happening around him.” We are made to believe that the birthday feast is the first time Uther took any interest in anything or even left his room. That’s why Arthur was so happy and thought his father was recovering. I don’t think he walked into the feast and started taking the knights resumes.

“As for trying to kill Gwen… he didn't torture her and didn’t want to kill her. He didn't even torment the magic-users he sentenced to death, so why the heck should he play those sick games with non-magical Gwen and then try to burn her alive?”

He didn’t torture magic users?! He burned hundreds of them, or those even suspected, at the stake. ? He even condemned Gaius to death, to burn at the stake after having him tortured by the witchfinder! ? Remember! ? This is what makes me ask: are we talking about the same show? Burning someone at the stake is not torture? If it is not, I don’t know what is. This seems to me someone who could easily attack and try to kill and burn Gwen alive.

“As for Arthur killing Careleon, yes it was broached that it was the wrong thing to do but in the end it was all Uther's fault again. A lot of fans were convinced that Uther would have done the same and that poor Arthur was only the victim of Agravaine and Uther, even after his death.”

Uther’s fault? How was that even in the equation? Uther was too careful to cause a war like that; Agravaine only said this to convince Arthur, and Arthur parroted him later. Arthur the poor victim? Agravaine’s fault? It is clear from the episode Arthur wasn’t a “victim” of anything except his own choice, he made the choice to kill Caerleon, against the advice of Merlin, I might add. He had to, as the king, make a choice and he made the wrong one with terrible consequences.

“So no, it wasn't dealt with critically enough because even Merlin later told Arthur that he "only did what he thought he had to do", downplaying the cruel murder again.” Arthur did do what he thought he had to do; Merlin says the same about Uther, but this isn’t the show excusing what they did. It is Merlin trying to console Arthur; Arthur knew exactly where Merlin stood on this question as he had already told him. Merlin didn’t need to preach about it.

“And Annis, the one who lost her husband, suddenly forgave and glorified Arthur as if nothing had ever happened. So Arthur was even rewarded ? in the end even though he had killed a defenseless man. By killing Caerleon he made the first step in uniting Albion and he also gained new friends, the kingdom of Caerleon. How weird is that?” ? Um, Arthur learned his lesson and did all that he was able to fix it. Annis learned forgiveness. And usually everything turns out well at the end of each episode.

“But really the only character who always stood up for his loved ones was Uther.” Excuse me? I don’t believe this.

“Arthur could have at least wondered how Uther is doing in the afterlife instead of simply sending him back. He never even considered that maybe Uther is suffering where he is but dismissed him as a vengeful, discontented and bad father.” In case you forgot, Uther was dead; he didn’t belong in Arthur’s world anymore, even if he wasn’t trying to kill Arthur’s wife. You think they should have sat down and had a cup of mead and discussed the situation? Sorry, I guess that’s a little sarcastic.

Well we could go on and on, but I don’t think we will ever agree about “Merlin”. But I’ve enjoyed discussing this. I’m always the one to analyze books, movies etc. but sometimes people aren’t interested in talking about it so deeply. ? I hope I haven’t said anything that seemed rude since that was not my intention; I just get rather excited!

Thanks.

